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Antitheocra Town Hall

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03.10.2022

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space_pirate666

space_pirate666

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06.05.2023 09:59:48
space_pirate666

Regarding fewer words I def agree! But still a lot of authors in the pat wrote in a similar manner (e.g., Dreiser, Dostoyevsky…); (I think the more words meant as means of showing off education level which was seen as a luxury that not a lot of people could afford)

06.05.2023 09:59:48

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CinnamonSugar

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06.05.2023 12:44:17
CinnamonSugar

Lovecraft is widely known for his classics in the field of cosmic horror and The Call of Cthulhu is definitely upon the most famous of his works. Did you find the story scary? Why or why not?

No. I would call this Fantasy, but it was not scary.
Perhaps that is because we now have movies & shows which present horror differently. Before video, this may have been horror.

For example, Lovecraft wrote, "Only poetry or madness could do justice to the noises heard by Legrasse's men...howls and squawking ecstasies that tore and reverberated through those nighted woods."
Reading this is not scary. If this were a movie, we could hear the howls & squawks. We would also probably see dark woods. The imagery & sounds of the movie add to the fright.
Reading a description doesn't do the same thing for me. Maybe that's just me. I read this before bed & usually slept just fine. (And when I didn't sleep well, I was thinking about work or other things unrelated to Cthulhu.)

06.05.2023 12:44:17

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StrangeKindOfWoman

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06.05.2023 15:05:06
StrangeKindOfWoman

Since it's such a short book I tried reading it in English. But I quickly noticed how long it took me to read, so I switched to my native language.
I didn't think it was scary but that could be because I was vaguely familiar with the story and what Cthulhu is (mostly from a South Park episode tbh :D).
I found it a bit odd, that the whole story was basically reading through people's notes though. I would have liked it better, if there were excerpts of these notes sprinkled in and the focus was the protagonist experiencing it himself.
At the end I realised I had no idea what the name of the protagonist was, lol

06.05.2023 15:05:06

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CinnamonSugar

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06.05.2023 15:16:53
CinnamonSugar

Yes, I also didn't particularly like the writing style.
I think this could have been more scary if the narrator was someone actually involved in the sighting of Cthulhu.

I have read other stories that are a series of letters, news articles, etc. that I enjoyed. I think including the actual wording of the letter would help show that first-hand account of Legrasse's experience with the cult or the sailors' encounter on the island.

06.05.2023 15:16:53

Melpomene

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06.05.2023 15:36:53
Melpomene

I find it's a rather common narrative tool in older stories to write it in narratives within narratives. Especially with things that have to with ghosts and other supernatural things. The idea, maybe, is to make it seem like those things could actually be real and happen in the real world - after all they happened to these people who (conveniently) did not live to tell the tale but left their stories behind. It's similar to how, when people tell scary/ghost stories to each other face-to-face, the stories often supposedly take place in some familiar locations or happened to a cousin of a friend of a friend. It's far enough that you can't confirm it, but close enough that you could be in danger too. ... Then again, letters and justifications for the narration (like someone writing their memoirs or something) or just also generally a somewhat common thing in older English literature

That being said, I also did not find this particularly scary. The separation through the several layers of letters, I think, contributed to this. There are many stories i've read that have made me more afraid since I could get more invested in them. I love literary horror, and do think that The Call of Cthulhu qualifies somewhat (the point of the story, I think, is to unsettle the reader) - but certainly for modern reader it probably isn't much.
I'm a little torn about whether horror is generally better in other media. Literature has the advantage of leaving a lot of things up to the imagination - and your imagination can ideally come up with some very terrifying things. But it certainly depends on the text

CinnamonSugar wrote:

I would also say the language is not necessarily "archaic" but perhaps higher level. I believe that literature used to be more for the upper class, especially as many people were not educated at that time. For example, the use of the word "febrile" for feverish is still used in healthcare, so it's not archaic.

True. It isn't that strange language all things considered. Perhaps "flowery" would've been a better word for it

There is something a little "archaic" about the world though. One of the contributors that made me not really buy into the story fully was that I just can't comprehend a world in which you can just stumble upon cyclopean structures never seen. Maybe it makes more sense for people 100 years ago, when there were plenty of places unexplored and no satellite images about literally everything. I could still get into the spirit of the idea but certainly that part of the story, to a modern reader, feels maybe a little more fantastical than it was intended

06.05.2023 15:36:53

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LillyAnn

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06.05.2023 15:46:27
LillyAnn

CinnamonSugar wrote:

I would also say the language is not necessarily "archaic" but perhaps higher level. I believe that literature used to be more for the upper class, especially as many people were not educated at that time. For example, the use of the word "febrile" for feverish is still used in healthcare, so it's not archaic.

This makes a lot of sense and explains well the use of 'not so common terms' to a not-native speaker like myself. I read the quite modern translation back in the day, published 2008 and again 2012, by Lovecraft enthusiast and doctor in literature and Anglistics from the same city as I am from. I even had a chance to met that guy but it was a year before his first Necronomicon publication. Since his work was quite enthusiastic and wide in the sphere of horror and gothic, including literature, art and movie, I was inclined toward his big luxury edition of Necronomicon with new translations, graphics and a few alterations of the content compared to previous standard editions. While that translation was totally spot on in bringing up the vibe it was certainly fun reading it in English tho I did have to use translator more than usually.

- Lovecraft is widely known for his classics in the field of cosmic horror and The Call of Cthulhu is definitely upon the most famous of his works. Did you find the story scary? Why or why not?

I don't find it scary, at least not in the regular sense of term. Maybe because it was not the first read, maybe because I find some other HPL's stories more scary and mysterious or maybe simply because it's indeed not that scary. The one would expect something way scarier than CoC as a horror classic. Tho the gender alone plays the role. It's not regular TV type of horror with buckets of raining blood and screaming in terror with protagonists placed in a small limited space they cannot escape from, waiting to be slashed. This is a cosmic fantasy horror that kinda resembles mythology stories, except it took place in 'now' instead of some distant past. The same way as reading a Greek mythology for example is not scary, CoC is not scary either. It's imaginative in a dark way.

Tho if the reader allows to be completely consumed with the vibe and imagination, it can be scary in a certain way. The story speaks of various places in the world which obviously makes the point that 'evil' is not suspended and limited on the specific time and place. It's worldwide and can manifest anytime. It was-it is-it will be makes the point it cannot be defeated, prevented or avoided. If it hasn't happened already, eventually it will happen 'when stars align again' and then the world and humanity we know will cease to exist. I think HPL played on the card of existentialism wrapped in fantasy type of thing on purpose in order to evoke the feeling of primal fear of the unknown.

It leaves aside graphic gory (and imo unnecessary) details giving out only a notion of terrible crimes and focuses on the mystery, the overall atmosphere and vibe, places, investigation, other people and many other topics which, for me, is way more exciting than simply telling me in details how someone was killed, tortured, sacrificed, etc.

- What kind of preconceptions did you go into the story with? Were you surprised by anything in the story?
- How did you feel about the somewhat archaic language? Did enhance the atmosphere for you? Did it distract from the story?

No preconceptions, no surprises since it was not first time reading. Language certainly enhanced the atmosphere for me and while it was distracting at moments it wasn't really too hard to handle, tho indeed took me more time to read.

Puzzle piece 39

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06.05.2023 15:46:27

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Honey Beee

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07.05.2023 21:18:39
Honey Beee

Hi all, I definitely enjoyed the "archaic" way of writing that is not so used anymore, but it definitely made it more difficult to read. I didn't necessarily find the story "scary" but it definitely had some suspenseful moments that got me on the edge of my seat a little bit. This is my first H.P. Lovecraft read, and while I didn't have any expectations/knowledge going into this reading, I would pick up something else written by him, but horror is not really my genre. Most of the story had these racist stereotypes which definitely made the reading distracting, but I understand that that's how people spoke back then lol. All in all, I liked the way the story is written, since we have to navigate different information and put it back together, and it does leave some doubt at the end of what happened to the narrator, and why are we reading this now? As in, is this what the narrator left behind and he has now "gone", or is this in the present time? x

07.05.2023 21:18:39

Melpomene

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09.05.2023 18:20:59
Melpomene

Some of the versions, like this one, start with the following phrase " (Found Among the Papers of the Late Francis Wayland Thurston, of Boston)", which implies that the protagonist is dead and also is the only place where his name is mentioned. Idk why some of the other version seem to have left it out or forgotten it. It think it is rather an important context for the story. This inevitability of doom for all that discover Cthulhu.
That is something I do genuinely find quite enthralling about the story. The implication that anyone who delved deeper into this mystery of Cthulhu is doomed to meet with an unfortunate faith shortly. It's like an infection spreading through curiosity and thought - two things impossible to stop or protect oneself from. These eldritch beings of horror can be hard for me to imagine but the power of thought is certainly something

Also, the next poll is up (and the link should be in your inboxes). It consists of the most popular picks from the last poll (other than Cthulhu). We'll do more suggestions after that. It'll be up until midday, Saturday or so. In the meantime, however, we can simultaneously continue this discussion. We can multitask :)

09.05.2023 18:20:59

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「DECADANCE」- Counting Goats... if I can't be yours-

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09.05.2023 20:50:24
「DECADANCE」- Counting Goats... if I can't be yours-

(edit: omg i took so long writing this Melpomene already pointed out the found in the papers thing lol. great observation. I think a possible reason some publications have forgotten it is due to the fact in the original magazine it is printed in a weird little box in the corner)

Hi sorry for the late post I only just finished reading this yesterday and I've been super busy because my mom is in town! I'll start my response by replying to something Honey Bee said.

I think it's interesting you bring up the ending Honey Beee, because to me the ending ties in directly with how unscary I found this book.

The narrator says at the end "Let me pray that, if I do not survive this manuscript, my executors may put caution before audacity and see that it meets no other eye" which would mean probably one of two things, either the narrator wasn't killed by some unseen cosmic forces or cult and so his manuscript was published at his own request or it was published posthumously by people that also decided it wasn't scary or convincing lol. Actually, based on how it was first published in the magazine Weird Tales (you can view the first page on wikipedia!) this story was "Found among the papers of the late Francis Wayland Thurston of Boston" which I think is a charming detail that's probably more kitschy than credible but it is fun. It makes me wonder if horror fans have always found horror more fun and titillating than scary, because I don't watch or read horror to get scared, I do it because horror is a fun and interesting genre with a lot to analyze about what "horrifies" the writer or larger society at the time period. The fact that a Weird Tales horror magazine even existed leads me to believe horror has always been enjoyed for its novelty rather than any true sense of fear. After all, if something were truly scary would it really gain popularity lol?

Anyways, I thought the ending was a little bizarre by today's standards, but perfectly in line with the time ie "archaic" lol and I found the attempt to leave a first person narration open ended refreshing. I did find it archaic in that it of course the supposition that this is some found manuscript depends on old fashioned printing lol rather than posting which I think this story absolutely would be (posted in a forum lol) if it were written today.

Melpone brought up the fact that the literary technique of narration within narration, and how this was not only common at the time, but remains common within scary stories, particularly in like informal tellings, like campfire stories or sharing ghost stories that happened to a friend of a friend. I'd also like to point out that it's still super common in informal genres like creepypastas, I think because the separation of the narrator from the events of the story allows for a larger suspension of disbelief. For example, a close first person narration often implies the narrator lived to tell the tale lol, so having the main horror happen to a third person could have the effect of making it more spooky, although I do think it could lose a "thriller" aspect, making it feel more difficult to get absorbed in the story. I definitely felt that with this story, overall, the action felt inconsequential making it a bit of a chore to read, though I do understand how the narrative technique, especially published in a magazine essentially as "found footage", could have made it more mysterious and possibly feel as though it contained a grain of truth for readers in the past.

I also found it difficult to get absorbed into the story due to constantly having to google either texts that were referenced or the archaic words used for nationalities and ethnic groups. One thing I noticed when googling all of those terms was that the suggested searches were all also used in this story so that was kind of funny, but it was shocking how nearly every word I had to google was yet another group of people HPL was apparently afraid of! This text was shockingly racist and xenophobic, not necessarily for the usage of the words themselves, since I suppose that was common then, but for the comparisons of many many nonwhite groups with descriptors like "evil-looking" "savage" "abhorrent...desperate... and clumsy" "mad" "mongrel" "degraded and ignorant" I'm sure there are more. On top of this, all groups associated with the cult of Cthulhu are nonwhite, and in contrast the heroes of his story, Legrasse and Johansen are white. HPL even goes so far as to write "traditionally evil repute, substantially unknown and untraversed by white men" a description that shows he considers whiteness to be antithetical to evil, whereas his connection of nonwhite groups to the cult of Cthulhu shows at the very least that he thinks nonwhite people are more likely to succumb to evil, if not an outright connection of nonwhite=evil in his mind. So anyways, the racist and xenophobic themes HPL is known for were prevalent in this story, and it definitely affected my reading experience in that the more I googled the terms he used the more shocked I was that he was so racist towards so many groups. It also affected my reading in that, analysis wise, I cannot see this story as anything more than an expression of xenophobic anxiety. I frankly think the sheer amount of racism is uncommon even for the time period, though I do think it was on the rise at the time through the eugenics movement, and I do think HPL was likely influenced by the eugenics movement. I was curious so I've found a short paper on jstor titled "The Refinement of 'Crude Allegory' Eugenic Themes and Genotypic Horror in the Weird Fiction of H.P. Lovecraft". I will let you know if it's any good!

(edit: lol okay im reading the paper, and HP Lovecraft was a self-professed eugenicist, so there goes my "likely influenced by the eugenics movement" statement lol he was for sure influenced by it)

Anyways, I did have preconceptions about this story, since it is an HPL story I did have the preconception it would be racist and to me those preconceptions were met and I wasn't necessarily surprised. I do like how reading this has opened up avenues to much further reading for me though. Lol there are A Lot of academic papers on HPL.

09.05.2023 20:50:24

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Honey Beee

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09.05.2023 22:01:19
Honey Beee

Xenophobic anxiety is a fantastic way to put it lol and thanks Mel and Decadance for bringing that up! The version I read didn't mention that part, and it is certainly an important detail. I also love that you both mention the original versions and I think that the "cover" of the original book goes along with that anxiety.. pictured here!

09.05.2023 22:01:19

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