Should This Topic Be Deleted for everyone’s sake? Take the poll if it shows up…

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Xemocracy Arena
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236
Created
02.11.2023
Author
Blecky89
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Antitheocra
04.11.2023 07:08:35
Beryllium

... I don't think anybody here has actually said anything pro Hamas. Hamas is just as extreme as the Israeli government, just significantly less equipped. Killing civilians = bad, yes? People are upset because the Israeli government is openly committing genocide against Palestinian civilias. The reason this is getting more attention than Hamas' attack is because it was essentially a terrorist attack and the people discussing it weren't inadvertently funding a state sponsored genocide with their tax dollars. Israel has been committing violence against the Palestinian people for decades, the difference now is that people are starting to see past the propaganda and anti-Muslim bias to understand what's really happening.

You keep saying "what about Hamas?!" Well, what about Hamas? They've done fucked up shit but that in no way excuses the targeting of fucking *hospitals*. Just as you will accept no excuse for supporting Hamas in the face of their atrocities so too will I accept no excuse for the genocide of Palestinian civilians. 

04.11.2023 07:08:35
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Freethinkerland
04.11.2023 16:24:48
Susan Slutzky

To Beryllium:

Casually throwing around the term genocide doesn't make it true.

Israel has been forced to defend itself since the Arab-Israeli War of 1948, when five Arab nations simultaneously invaded (the first of many sneak attacks to come) with the sole purpose of killing every Jewish person who lives there. Indeed that same goal is explicitly stated in Hamas' charter document. I'll quote it directly:

“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

Peaceful co-existance? A two-state solution? Non-violent protest? Hamas is not interested. I quote again from the charter:

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

I challenge you to find an equivalent statement in Israel's founding documents that calls for the violent liquidation of an entire population. (Spoiler: you can't, because there is none.)

As I mentioned before, Hamas has not held an election since taking control of Gaza in 2007. It is the quintessential authoritarian regime which permits no dissent, no free press, nor the presence of any non-Muslim residents.

By contrast, there are many Muslim and Christian citizens of Israel, including Khaled Kabub, the judge who currently sits on Israel's Supreme Court. Last January, he issued an order for Prime Minister Netanyahu to remove a senior minister of his cabinet who was convicted of tax fraud. Netanyahu complied with that order.

This could not happen in an actual "Apartheid State", and it never happens in Gaza where Hamas routinely violates international laws and the Geneva Conventions -- including the placement of military targets in densely populated civilian areas. Unlike Hamas, Israel issues public warnings when they are about to launch airstrikes. Hamas does not allow their citizens to evacuate. These flagrant war crimes demonstrate just how little Hamas cares about the safety and security of its citizens -- who again, have had no opportunity to vote in a free and fair election in over 15 years.

So no, I reject your premise that Israel and Hamas are equivalent. In fact, they are remarkably different.

04.11.2023 16:24:48
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Atheista
05.11.2023 11:07:05
rzenskaa

Every time i see those arguments starting with something like "BUT HAMAS..." i need to remind people that HAMAS IS NOT JUST AN ORGANISATION MADE BY PALESTININAS. ITS WAS SUPPORTED FINANCIALLY BY ISRAEL FOR YEARS. (link for people who wants to know more https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/ ) 
I hate this narration. Absolutely nothing justifies Israel's actions. All these people are doing is lying to us about how much the Palestinians have hurted them (at the same time writing that they are not human and that they are going to be as brutal as possible) they are making victims of themselves, even though they have the whole world standing behind them. They even lie about israel victims of Hamas. THEY SHOW PHOTOS FROM GAZA AND SAYS THAT ITS ISRAEL.

Saying that hamas is responsible for what is happening now is just like saying that when a virus hits your body and your body starts to defend itself it is an attack. 
Im Polish and i think that the whole Poland should stays with Palestine, we were in the similar situation to Palestinians for decades. I participate in protests in Poland for Palestinians and  I will always be on the side of the victims. 
FREE PALESTINE

(also sorry for my english its not the best lately)    

05.11.2023 11:07:05

i love when women 
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Secville
05.11.2023 13:09:50
Honey Beee

Hamas is not in the West Bank and the IDF continues to displace, attack, and even murder civilians there. What about that?

I would like to think that we are all against unnecessary death, including civilian deaths, displacement, terrorism, and all-around violence. It is clear to me that what Palestinians are experiencing a genocide, and as mentioned by the literal president of the UN, genocide does not happen in a vaccuum. On top of this, many genocide experts voice the same opinions and concern. I watched a video on NPR about released Palestinian workers that were detained and they all were tagged with numbers. This can’t be acceptable to anyone that has an inch of empathy… 

I’m not here to fight with anyone. I want to encourage empathy and reading the information that has been so kindly posted on this thread by others before me. We must be willing to open our hearts and mind to facts, even if it might be difficult to do so. 

I suggest that everyone becomes familiar with how genocides happen too… (10 stages of genocide)

05.11.2023 13:09:50

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Freethinkerland
05.11.2023 13:30:29
Susan Slutzky

To rzenskaa:

Every time i see those arguments starting with something like "BUT HAMAS..." i need to remind people that HAMAS IS NOT JUST AN ORGANISATION MADE BY PALESTININAS. ITS WAS SUPPORTED FINANCIALLY BY ISRAEL FOR YEARS.

I’ve already addressed this claim in my previous response to Pollyx. Please read it, because you are misrepresenting the facts.

Hamas was founded by the Palestinian imam Ahmed Yasmin. It emerged out of his Mujama al-Islamiya which had been established in Gaza in 1973 as a part of the Egypt-based Muslim Brotherhood. This is public record and no serious person disputes it.

But even if you were correct, and Israel truly did create Hamas, how does that justify the massacre committed on Oct. 7 at the Israeli music festival? Are you really arguing that murder is ok if the victim gives you the gun? Why is victim-blaming wrong except when the victims are Jewish?

I hate this narration. Absolutely nothing justifies Israel's actions. All these people are doing is lying to us about how much the Palestinians have hurted them (at the same time writing that they are not human and that they are going to be as brutal as possible)

Who are you referring to? Who are “these people” that are driving you to hate?

they are making victims of themselves, even though they have the whole world standing behind them.

Oh yes, look at all the support Israel is getting right here in this forum. Very popular indeed!

They even lie about israel victims of Hamas. THEY SHOW PHOTOS FROM GAZA AND SAYS THAT ITS ISRAEL.
Again, who are you referring to? Who is they?

Saying that hamas is responsible for what is happening now is just like saying that when a virus hits your body and your body starts to defend itself it is an attack.

Oh, how nice. Comparing Jewish people to a virus. Gee, that sounds familiar. Where have I heard that before?


To Honey Beee:
Hamas is not in the West Bank and the IDF continues to displace, attack, and even murder civilians there. What about that?

Yes, the violence and suffering there is terrible. Israel shares responsibility for that and should be held accountable. My personal belief is that Israel should leave the West Bank immediately. Pull out the troops and settlers the same way they did in Gaza. Many people in Israel hold this same opinion, and it will no doubt be a top issue in the next elections.

Now here’s my question for Palestinian supporters:

How does Hamas’ well-planned massacre of hundreds of unarmed Israeli civilians on Oct. 7 actually help anybody who is suffering in the West Bank, or in Gaza for that matter?

05.11.2023 13:30:29
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Atheista
05.11.2023 15:05:30
rzenskaa

Most of the things im talking about is from official Israel twitter - https://twitter.com/Israel?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
https://twitter.com/Lowkey0nline/status/1714775482283991172
 - some example of their lies 
https://www.facebook.com/story.php/?story_fbid=855615656246238&id=100053934333302&paipv=0&am... - Hananya Naftali shares AI photos 
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israel-paints-palestinians-as-animals-to-legitimize-war-crimes-... 
https://twitter.com/incontextmedia/status/1711433198368940443 - Dehumanization of Palestinian (literally nazi move) 

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/unverified-allegations-beheaded-babies-israel-hamas-war-inflam...
 - spreading misinformation about victims of Hamas 
People who have a real influence on the course of events support Israel. 
I dont talk anywhere about Jews, i only talk about zionist. This is how Jews who are against this horror are treated and i feel sorry for them. - https://www.newarab.com/news/israeli-police-attack-anti-zionist-jews-amid-gaza-war
 
 Idk if i share everything i wanted but theres some examples of zionist's propaganda in social media.  

05.11.2023 15:05:30

i love when women 
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Freethinkerland
05.11.2023 15:38:20
Susan Slutzky

To rzenskaa:

Posting a list of cherry-picked links is easy. Making a coherent, persuasive argument is what matters.

Is it your contention that only one side of this conflict is guilty of spreading misinformation? That misinformation and propaganda aren’t tools used in every conflict by all sides? Do you believe that Palestinians hold a monopoly on truth?

05.11.2023 15:38:20
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Secville
05.11.2023 16:49:44
Katrynah

news update: paltel reports that once again after their restoration, all telecommunications in gaza have been cut as israeli airstrikes intensify. in prior days, israel bombed the entrance to al-shifa hosiptal, claiming the ambulance convoy attempting to transport injured to the egyptian border had hamas operatives. thousands have taken refuge in and outside of al-shifa due to destruction of their homes as well as injuries. israel is also bombing the vicinity of al-quds hospital. outside of gaza, israel killed an older woman with her three children in southern lebanon.

susan, i have yet to receive a discord invite from you. if discord does not work for you, message me privately and i can provide another way of communication. beheaded babies is not a claim you get to make and walk away from. 

05.11.2023 16:49:44
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                                                                ·:*¨⁺˚⋆。°✩₊ ʚ  ɞ ₊✩°。⋆˚⁺¨*:·

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Here's Pollyx's educational forum post about Israel's apartheid and genocide of Palestinians! 
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Freethinkerland
05.11.2023 17:15:07
Susan Slutzky

 To Katrynah:

I never agreed to contact you on discord, nor do I have any desire to continue our conversation since you’ve made clear your view that there is no such thing as innocent Israelis, and that the victims of the Oct. 7 massacre deserved their fate.

If you have anything further to say to me, you can post it here. If I choose to respond, I will post that here too.

05.11.2023 17:15:07
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Reasonopia
07.11.2023 05:46:10
frogbimbo

For people who are trying to spread real info about what is happening, do not waste your time with people who only want "a hot debate" in which, despite receiving truthful arguments/proof, they only want to impose their vision of things and therefore misinform other people. The proof provided is clear, whoever doesn't want to see it is because they don't want to.  

For all the people who read unfair things but don't have the courage or feel capable of supporting the cause right now for whatever reason, it's okay!! By sharing/liking you already do a lot, take care and stay safe ( ˘ ³˘)♡




07.11.2023 05:46:10
 Xoxo lovely frogs  

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