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The New and Improved BL Bookclub

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Category
Antitheocra Town Hall
Posts
162
Created
03.10.2022
Author
space_pirate666
「DECADANCE」- Counting Goats... if I can't be yours-
「DECADANCE」- Counting Goats... if I can't be yours-
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Atheista
「DECADANCE」- Counting Goats... if I can't be yours-
Oh my god that cover is so... Haha I wish we could use emojis on here I'd use the grimace face

Anyways, I really enjoyed this essay, I think it's interesting even if you're unfamiliar with much of Lovecraft's work, and its very interesting if you are familiar.
Since I know not everyone has access to jstor, here's a quote I wanted to share regarding analysis of Lovecrafts xenophobic, racist, and eugenic themes:

"We are left with the problem of what to fi
with the author's participation in eugenic discourse. That the movement's rhetorical strategies pervade Lovecraft's fiction is a certainty. Our remaining task is not to further verify the relationship but to gauge its value. It would be easy to use the author's outmoded opinions against him, denounce his stories and his life. Alternatively, we could find Lovecraft innocent of any ethical violations by filing on his behalf a plea of temporary insanity brought on by the turbulent pre-World War II racial context. But-- as I suggested earlier-- I believe that both options utilize reductive logic to achieve unproductive ends. Those who would dismiss Lovecraft because of his racism should recognize that his fiction is symptomatic of a greater ill. Their criticism could be more positively applied to the paper trail of stories and letters that leads back to the eugenics movement. Those who would forgive the writer too readily should acknowledge that his beliefs are coded so deeply in his fiction that no amount of foregiveness can extricate them.
We cannot explain away what is on the page, but we can explain it-- in fact we must do so to fully understand the author's fictions."
(Frye, 2006)

I thought this was a great explanation of the importance of a critical contextual analysis, and as a writer myself I would also further this point in saying it's important to identify rhetoric that Lovecraft (and other writers) use to further racist, or other agendas (I find that patriarchal agendas are super pervasive and hard to get rid of in your own writing) that you don't want to unwittingly reproduce so you can be more aware of your own writing. I feel like as a writer I am influenced a lot by the fiction I consume, because I have fun with it so I want to reproduce the aspects that I find fun or interesting, but it's important to be aware of other themes so you don't accidentally reproduce those as well and perpetuate them.

09.05.2023 23:07:54
*hands you a monster*
Honey Beee
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Honey Beee
10.05.2023 01:02:08
Honey Beee
I'd love to read the whole thing! And I am enjoying this interaction a lot. It is the first time I join a book club of sorts, and this is definitely encouraging me for this and all further discussions to look at the big picture. It is not just about the story written and whatever interpretation we give it, but it is key to include the context surrounding the writer's life, the book's life, world history and sociology, and even details down to publication versions. Clearly all these things matter and have to be taken into consideration to make a full "proper" analysis of whatever we read. The racist rhetoric of its time was very distracting, but in a way very clear to spot (imo), but when we read other books of other times, it might not be so easy. As you said, becoming more aware of the things you want to reproduce and those that you don't is key and even changes your entire perception on a whole paragraph of text!!

10.05.2023 01:02:08

StrangeKindOfWoman
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StrangeKindOfWoman
10.05.2023 11:56:50
StrangeKindOfWoman
I thought the racist remarks were "just" the characters being racist since I really don't know anything about HPL as a person or his writing style in other books. And I don't know why but I thought he wrote this in the 1950s and the story took place in the 1920s :D which probably is another reason why I thought the racist parts were deliberate to fit the time of the story.

10.05.2023 11:56:50
I am always stressed out by not knowing how to act like a normal person
「DECADANCE」- Counting Goats... if I can't be yours-
「DECADANCE」- Counting Goats... if I can't be yours-
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Atheista
「DECADANCE」- Counting Goats... if I can't be yours-
omg thats such an interesting preconception about the story. Would you say you thought it was from the 50s and not the 20s because of the sci fi elements?
I was going to actually comment something along the lines of "like HG Well's War of the Worlds but then I googled it and realized... War of the Worlds was written in the 1890s!! Lol I had the same preconception that it was written later based on the fact it was an alien sci-fi and because of the radio program HG Wells narrated in the 30s... which again I thought it wasdone later, like the 40s or 50s!
I do think that's one reason Lovecraft's work has stayed so popular, the cosmic horror definitely feels ahead of its time

edit: btw here is the link to the essay i was reading yesterday https://www.jstor.org/stable/26390171
there are many different schools of thought regarding literary analysis (lmao though I barely know them I took more writing classes than literary theory classes) but i do love what Honey Beee has come up with!! I think keeping in mind the history surrounding an author is important too, because writers dont exist in vacuums they are definitely influenced by their beliefs and i think we can find historical value even in fiction writing through keeping that in mind!

10.05.2023 14:16:08
*hands you a monster*
StrangeKindOfWoman
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StrangeKindOfWoman
11.05.2023 07:28:45
StrangeKindOfWoman
I don't know if it was the sci fi elements that made me think so. But it definitely feels ahead of its time, because these kinds of stories have a 50s feel to them. But then again, I could be wrong about that. And I thought the same thing about War of the Worlds, probably because of the movie from 1953. 

Also, it made me think of Stephen King's Carrie because of the way it was written. In Carrie many chapters would start with something like a newspaper article about the events that happen later in the book, so you immediately know something terrible will happen. 

11.05.2023 07:28:45
I am always stressed out by not knowing how to act like a normal person
LillyAnn
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LillyAnn
12.05.2023 00:16:01
LillyAnn
Stephen King was influenced by Lovecraft, based on his words 'one of his greatest influence'.
“Now that time has given us some perspective on his work, I think it is beyond doubt that H. P. Lovecraft has yet to be surpassed as the twentieth century’s greatest practitioner of the classic horror tale.” 
“Lovecraft. . . opened the way for me, as he had done for others before me.... It is his shadow, so long and gaunt, and his eyes, so dark and puritanical, which overlie almost all of the important horror fiction that has come since.”

Speaking of CoC, the way I remembered it from previous readings I was quite sure that narrator was already dead, and so we have a chance to read the story. The version I read this time surprised with not being clear about it. It's kinda classic thing that protagonist either killed himself, got killed, disappeared, transformed, got consumed by someone/something, went insane, etc. If protagonist is alive, which is rare, he is not sure if weird things really happened or were the product of wild imagination, delirium or a very vivid and strange dream (something that Wilcox experienced).

12.05.2023 00:16:01

Welcome new bimbos & himbos ❣   

I identify as transparent, pronounces who/where
(don't take this seriously, because if you do it's your own fault)

「DECADANCE」- Counting Goats... if I can't be yours-
「DECADANCE」- Counting Goats... if I can't be yours-
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Atheista
「DECADANCE」- Counting Goats... if I can't be yours-
Oooooh that's really neat, I can see how Stephen King could be influenced by Lovecraft, and then I can see how Call of Cthulhu relates especially with the use of like dream themes in his work like in Doctor Sleep and the Shining. Lol that's a great fact that I didn't know but now that you've said it it makes perfect sense!

Also it's interesting that Lovecraft's protagonists always have these horrible demises that you've listed. Especially with the suicides by the protagonists after they learn whatever horrible cosmic truths, I think there's a clear nihilistic theme in Lovecraft's work, for example here in CoC, the very resigned to a horrible fate line of "What has risen may sink, and what has sunk may rise" is basically a prediction that no matter what the world would eventually fall to Cthulhu, so essentially nothing anyone could do in the meantime matters. I would think that's why Lovecraft's protagonists or narrators all have similar horrible ends, because to Lovecraft there is always a horrible end and nothing you do will change that. Haha it's a very sad take on nihilism, but it does fit the horror genre for sure.

12.05.2023 14:49:54
*hands you a monster*
LillyAnn
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LillyAnn
13.05.2023 00:48:37
LillyAnn
Yeah, I think nihilism is the right word. My take on it was existentialism wrapped in the fantasy.
It is interesting that in some stories Outer gods and Great old ones are described as indifferent towards human affairs, not necessarily hostile and malicious. Like, they are what they are, it's in their nature and their nature and comprehension are way different and beyond than humans' one. There is no some master-plan specifically against human race and annihilating it for this or that reason. It just happens. However, some of these beings seem to like to interfere human affairs, regardless of consequences, and apparently human lives don't mean a thing to them perhaps because it is just one small point in the infinity and much greater cosmic affairs.
On the other hand, there are human characters either alone or organized in cults who purposely involve in various kind of rituals. In CoC there are at least 3 obscure groups/cults in various places in the world who praise Cthulhu and want to bring him back.
In some other stories someone invokes Yog-Sothoth and wants to open the gates. Those who involve with Yog-Sothoth are rather single individuals than organized groups. Some of them just want to pierce deeper and deeper through the unknown and cosmic secrets, while others have more obscures, malicious or just selfish plans.
Azathoth has followers who praise him and reach to him as their ancient deity they learned about from the stories of ancestors, but Azathoth alone doesn't seem to have interests in humans. He is blind mindless outer god that just exists as ruler of everything, including other Outer gods and Great old ones.
Nyarlathotep is one of the entities, if not the only one, that actively meddle in human affairs and everyday lives. At the same time also the only or rare one who has more defined personality, shapeshifts and meets people. He often acts as link between Outer/Other gods and cultists on the earth. He is intelligent, knows humans well and for a long time and so knows their nature.

That ^^ brings up the topic that after all, it is all mostly about humans themselves and their nature. Other/Outer gods don't care (Nyarlathotep is exception), Great old ones wants their dominions (like Cthulhu who ruled the earth in the past but he is still rather impersonal force who happens to have a shape) and humans are those who are looking for them out of curiosity, ignorance, thrust for knowledge, urge to become more than just regular human beings, they reach out for the selfish reasons and power, out of madness or just pure malice.

13.05.2023 00:48:37

Welcome new bimbos & himbos ❣   

I identify as transparent, pronounces who/where
(don't take this seriously, because if you do it's your own fault)

Charles Tao
Charles Tao
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Charles Tao
15.05.2023 13:48:28
Charles Tao
wow wow wow, never imagined I would find a book club here with such a cool books choices!! and such an interesting and well argumented comments!! I own a bookshop and literature is my life. Will definitely try to read all the comments about CoC and to participate in this book or the next!

15.05.2023 13:48:28


Mark, my friend, you can rest now. This world never deserved that soul.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BrAVvU1ppQ
Melpomene
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Melpomene
16.05.2023 16:51:32
Melpomene
Nice! I've also enjoyed reading these discussion immensely. It's fun to share a reading experience with others. Feel free to comment on CoC still if you want to! I'm here now to announce the next reading project but during the "reading period" of that there's till some room for the last discussion to continue even if we're officially moving on.

Alright, I ended up keeping the poll up a little bit to Sunday due to personal hurries. Also why I didn’t get around to designing the next schedule until now. Luckily the club isn’t exactly rapid in pace. It was a very close call this time but the next reading project is

                                    The Master and Margarita by Mikhail Bulgakov


Yet again, we’re kind of lucky to have the kind of old book that is easily accessed online via public domain. If we end up with a more modern book in the future, acquiring a copy will be a bit more independent. Nevertheless, here are a few resources for this reading if you won’t/can’t get a physical copy:

https://www.masterandmargarita.eu/estore/pdf/eben001_mastermargarita_glenny.pdf (full text pdf)
https://www.d-pdf.com/book/663/read (full text pdf, slightly better format, more difficult to navigate)

There’s also a good professional audiobook you can find on most audiobook services and beyond with fairly little effort.

 

Since the book is longer this time (400ish pages depending on the font), it’ll also take more time to read, so we’re taking that into account in our scheduling. Conveniently for us, the story is divided into two “books” within itself with both books taking up around half the pages. The halfway point in between, therefore, seems like a good point to stop for midway discussion. Last time we had a longer book I ended up being a little optimistic with the schedule, so let me know how this sounds:
May 16th to June 2nd: Reading time for “Book One” (Chapters 1-18)

June 2nd to June 5th: Official discussion time for “Book One” (continues unofficially after that)

June 5th to June 23rd: Reading time for “Book Two” (Chapters 19-32)

June 23rd to June 27th: Official Discussion time for “Book Two” 

(June 27th to June 30th: Suggestion time + continues discussion
July 1st: Next poll)

 

If it looks like this is too little time to get the reading done, we can always push back the dates a little.


PS. Below are also the other results of this second poll for anyone interested. We had nine voters this time. As you can see, Christie (and Zelazny) was really close to winning too




16.05.2023 16:51:32

Furiously drawing new designs 

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