Do you believe in God?

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02.05.2015

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Space Baby

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Space Baby

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02.05.2015 18:34:55
Space Baby

The answer of the existence of God has been a tirelessly debated one. Personally, I don't believe in the God of classical theism. As a Buddhist, it's not in my interest to think of the answers to questions such as 'is there a God?' or 'how was the universe created?' but as a human being I have a natural curiosity.
Many arguments have been brought to the table such as the cosmological argument and the teleological argument or the problem of evil and suffering which have all surfaced many different theories and questions themselves.
So, do you believe in a God? What are your theories to support your views?

02.05.2015 18:34:55

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HeavenLeighBimbo

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03.05.2015 00:49:12
HeavenLeighBimbo

You really do have a natural curiosity. You also asked one of the most difficult questions possible in the vast universe. Truly a challenging subject to talk about, yet all meaningless once your dead. What will you take with you on that journey?

I believe it is all in how you define God.
There is so much Order, in the known universe. While puny human minds need to personify that order with a vision of an old man and a beard in a fresco painted on a church ceiling. We are all God's in training. You can change and effect the environment around you, including the people close to YOUR universe. Being human is the first step towards enlightenment.
For in the beginning there was darkness.
And he said," let there be light."

I may be looking at the subject of God in a unique way, because of my connection with growing gardens. Basic Life, Thrives, HOW?
The master turns the soil, plants a seed, pulls the weeds, and pours blessings in the form of rain. I give thanks to that grey puffy cloud passing overhead that saves me a days work. Then I smile at the smell of the wind that gives me breath, as a stunning rainbow treats my eyes to the face of Gods promise to me. Every color in the universe is possible with just a simple seed placed on the tip of my finger.
. Some might even call it the 'God Particle' . I keep things simple. I planted a life form that I can eat for dinner, in my own judgement time.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/02/18/the-god-particle-explained-in-two-minutes-by-the-man-who-...
For more challenging listening.

I do believe in God.
I've been blessed with miracles, and unexplainable 'saves' by Angels.
My own mother proved to me of an existence after death. Spooky but comforting at the same time.
Everyone is the Spawn of God.
How we live our lifetime is God's collage for us, as his children with freedom of choice.
The representations of God are endless in the history of art.
Yet: Humanity is the greatest canvas ever conceived by a Master of his Art. (aka God.)
There needs to be a word for the Unknown Element, after all. I never had a true father in life, so I don't mind calling God," My father who art in Heaven, Hallowed Be thy name...... "
God brought me comfort, when I had none as a small child. God was more of a Father to me in shaping my personality and for this gift he allows me to help others. Faith can move mountains at the speed of thought and intention.

This subject is also cause for me to preach. Not of Heaven or Hell, but of kindness to everyone around you.
Pay kindness Forward.
God seems to like that.

Micah (Ordained Minister, Christian National Church )
For the education and theory and I wanted to kill some time.... ? .
Infinity and possibility is worth seeking as a mortal.
Why else get out of bed in the morning?
God didn't tell you too. He just made it possible, somehow.......
Every step you take today, is the human experience of growth.
God is in human nature whether you like it or not.

03.05.2015 00:49:12

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Remi

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03.05.2015 14:55:16
Remi

I'm not really sure if this is the kind of discussions we should have on this site because usually discussions involving religion tend to get out of hand on forums. There's no rules against it right now so go right ahead, just as long as everyone keeps this respectful it should be okay.

03.05.2015 14:55:16

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HeavenLeighBimbo

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04.05.2015 04:35:35
HeavenLeighBimbo

Remi wrote:

I'm not really sure if this is the kind of discussions we should have on this site because usually discussions involving religion tend to get out of hand on forums. There's no rules against it right now so go right ahead, just as long as everyone keeps this respectful it should be okay.

I'm not one to worry about human attitudes.
Your right of course Remi. I've seen the disasters too. What better place to have a revolution, than a totally unpopulated forum.
My comment is stupid, and I KNOW IT.

Speaking of a God=like=being is always going to sound CRAZY.
I believe, but don't expect anyone else too.
Personal experience, with God, is life's TRIAL.
Probation or childhood?
A question God asked Me; Once upon a time.

So Who Is a GOD?

I'm quite sure all of humanity fails to claim 'God-ship'

Life is Knowledge. and a crazy concept. Never mind about GOD. The train has already left the station.
Look at your FRIENDS. Do they make you a better person?
I became a party-girl, and was a bit disrespectful in my youthful years.
God certainly wasn't an option when I entered Kindergarten.
Just Sayin'
The belief in a supreme being is intimidating and a challenge to everyone, no matter what culture they were bourn into..
. Thus religion is always going to be a messy topic. I'm not even very sure any religion reflects God's true intentions for humanity. I just know how God has helped me, a common sinner.

04.05.2015 04:35:35

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miriaam

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04.05.2015 18:37:58
miriaam

It is complicated for me. I don't know what I believe. I totally believed in God when I was a child, but growing up made me think about this a lot... And I haven't found ad answer for me yet. So I'm lust in the middle of 'believing' and 'not believing'.

04.05.2015 18:37:58

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neurazhenschina

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04.05.2015 20:05:32
neurazhenschina

I'm an agnostic. I was raised like an atheist, but I just tend to think everything all over and over again and doubt everything I see and think... I just prefer don't speak about what I can't be sure of.

I feel a lot of respect to all those who truly believe in God. I really do. They are always so kind, so pure, they have some kind of inner light and inner beauty. It's a big pleasure to deal with them.
But I'm full of disgust at those who goes to church "because everyone does". All those who threaten children with "eat your soup, or God will punish you". All those liars, who do bad and even awful things and then dare to cross themselves at church without any regret. All those who kill in name of their God, when He told them not to do it. I always think, would their God approve what they do? Do they ask themselves about it?
I've been told once, "Atheism is the worst thing that can happen to a person". Oh really? There are many atheists who live more honest and proper life than some people who call themselves religious... Is that less approvable than, for example, wearing a crucifix while being cruel or selfish or agressive with others and not feeling any guilt?..

As for me, it's all about responsibility. Whether you are responsible to yourself, or to people around you, or to your God, to all of them, you just need to be a good person. I think it's a more precious thing.

One thing I can say - religion and church has nothing to do with the faith. Religion is mostly a social institute, made by people to control other people. Faith is something inner that helps you getting through and maybe - if God really exists - can make you closer to Him.

Yeah, religion tread is always a holy war at any forum. And nobody can persuade nobody, so it's usually a pretty useless, but quite interesting tread. And sometimes even fun :D

(Sorry if I made mistakes, English is not my mother language. I'm just studying)

04.05.2015 20:05:32

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Bebe92583

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05.05.2015 00:00:15
Bebe92583

Religion or believing in God is an age old question. History in all it ragged glory or gore bears this out.i personally believe in God but I'm not here to choke God down someone else s throat whose spirituality may well be the total opposite of mine. to each his own on whether to be atheist,agnostic,Wicca,druid or any of the other host of beliefs that exist in society. there will never be a winner in the war of "religion" but we can learn about other sets of beliefs that are different from those of our own personal choice without waging war just be prepared to be open minded and accepting of others

05.05.2015 00:00:15

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Space Baby

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05.05.2015 14:42:14
Space Baby

I'm personally still undecided about the existence of God (classical theism or not). I think that there are many good points to support and go against.

In the Teleological argument (sometimes called the Design Argument) supporters of this argument use observation of apparent order, regularity and purpose in the universe/natural world. Many come to the conclusion that the complex design of the universe and of our natural world shows evidence of a design and did not come from chance - there was a designer and that designer was God.
The design of our world is complex and functions in a way to fulfil a specific purpose (e.g. changing of seasons so we can grow crops/have a variety of foods, the intricate organism of the human body).

Plato was one of the philosophers who contributed to this argument. He believed the universe was pre-existent and there was a being who had the power to shape worlds (the 'demi urge'). This demi urge is responsible for everything on Earth which is why there is order rather than chaos. However, Plato does not draw the conclusion that this demi urge is God, as he did not believe that this demi-urge created the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing), whereas most believers of the God of classical theism agree that God did create the universe ex nihilo.

Aristotle claimed that, based on his observations of the stars above and of the world, the only explanation for so much complexity and beauty was a divine intelligence - the first 'Unmoved mover', who set off all the chain of motion in the universe and is the source of all the order. Many conclude this is God.

THIS is all down to design qua regularity - the philosophers who support this argument consider the presence of order/regularity as being evidence of an intelligent designer. e.g. a beautiful garden shows evidence of a gardener because of order, lack of weeds, etc. The formal garden did not come by chance but by a gardener, which is basically ties into what HLB stated about gardens.
Aquinas argues from this. He said that everything works towards some purpose/end. Inanimate objects must be moved by an external power. e.g. an archer/arrow - the archer sets the arrow into motion by shooting it. The archer is the mover and the arrow is the moved.
He also said that our natural bodies act in a regular fashion to accomplish their end; this is evidence of an intelligent God. e.g. a pen cannot fufil its function by itself (being unintelligent) and write, it needs something with intelligence to fulfil its purpose of writing. We could not fulfil our 'purpose' without a God.

Now, personally, none of these arguments sway me towards accepting an existence of God. With the whole 'unmoved mover' I can never grasp the fact that the universe in infinite, but something caused it to happen (the unmoved mover). If this umoved mover caused the universe, then what caused the unmoved mover? If something needs to be moved from an external force, then what moved the unmoved mover? How can he be infinite? I CANNOT GRASP INFINITY IN A CIRCLE RATHER THAN A BEGINNING AND ONWARDS/AN END.

05.05.2015 14:42:14

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Space Baby

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05.05.2015 14:56:56
Space Baby

THEn there is design qua purpose which looks at deisgn in relation to the ways parts of the universe fit together for a purpose. People often compare the universe to a man-made machine - a designer fits the parts together for a specific function. e.g. a TV's parts fit together to receive pictures/sound - if the parts were fit any other way, the TV would not work. Nature ALSO shows complex arrangements.

Isaac Netwon discovered laws of gravity/motion and that the same physical laws on earth apply to the universe.
At this point, God was not the conclusion. Laplace, a scientist, concluded that everything in the solar system was caused. He thought that eventually scientific terms would be able to explain how the natural laws of the universe worked and that God was irrelevant.

Paley:
He developed a watch analogy in response to science using mechanical terms to describe the universe - with a watch, all parts fit together for a purpose, not by chance. An intelligent person would infer a designer of the watch. The same analogy is used with the human eye (it is too complex to not have an intelligent designer).

Evidence from astronomy and Newton's law of motion and gravity is used to prove design in the universe, a lot of people say.
The rotation of the planets in the solar system/how they obey universal laws and hold their orbits is because of gravity BUT an external agent must have imposed this order on the universe as a whole and it could not have come about by chance, so the agent is God.
Arthur Brown said that the ozone layer is evidence of a design. The purpose of it is to to filter out the ultraviolet rays to protect life - this could NOT have come around by chance.

Having studied the teleological argument for two years now, I could go on about the anthropic principles and the aesthetic argument but I do not want to bore you as both basically support the existence of a God and have very good points.

But as any argument that supports the existence of God, there are always arguments against. The teleological argument has many criticisms which also have valid points and contradict some arguments from the teleological view.

David Hume's criticism were a major opponent of the design argument.
He asks why the universe had to have a beginning. Even if it was possible to discern order and purpose in the universe, it is still not evidence that it is the work of the God of classical theism. He stated that the natural world has many flaws, such as suffering. This points to a designer that is not infinite or perfect (Hume's views about the flaws of mankind and the natural world tie in closely to a huge argument on evil and suffering, something I am very passionate about and sways me more to believing that there is not a God. HOWEVER, my beliefs are my beliefs and others are free to feel what they feel. I believe that, if a God of classical theism (religion) helps a person to better themselves, then that's wonderful. But we all know that there are many problems religion occurs many times but that is not to say that religion cannot be pure)

Hume's main reasons for opposing this argument are:
Sufficient knowledg/experience: humans have none of this to conclude there is only one designer. Humans are finite and cannot experience the world/universe fully to understand. We only have experience of things WE design and create. We have limited experience, so it is not sufficient to apply to the creation and design of the world. Analogy - God transcends human understanding and so we cannot use human analogy. Manufactured objects used as anaolgy points to many hands to make things which suggest many Gods needed to create a world. It's not right to liken the universe to a machine. Epicurean Hypothesis - could be by chance or design; there appears to be order but it could be a result of random chance. At the time of creation the universe consisted of particles in random motion - chaotic at first but gradually evolved into an ordered system because of natural forces.The universe is eternal and with this unlimited time and ordered state WOULD develop. Stability/order is not proof of a divine designer but random particles coming together through time to form current stability.

05.05.2015 14:56:56

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Space Baby

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05.05.2015 16:03:04
Space Baby

Mill was another who opposed the teleological argument. He said that knowledge had to be grounded in experienced. He challenged the idea that evidence of design proved God exists - evil and suffering; the designer cannot omnipotent and omnibenevolent if there is suffering. If God was both these things then God would not have included it in the design (again, evil and suffering is whole other topic). He said that at least on of the attributes given to God must be missing in order for there to be a God and suffering/evil.

Darwin (and his successors)
In his book, the Origin of the Species, he formulated the theory of natural selection. The book challenges the argument from design. The theory proposes that certain species have become extinct and new species emerge over time. He gave an alternate explanation for the design of the world, without God.
The survival of the fittest explains part of the process (a theory surfaced from Herbert Spencer).
Darwin stated that random variations that give advantage to a plant/animal for survival result in the survival of the fittest of that species. The process of natural selection is gradual and ongoing. (the result of natural/random processes rather than the work of a divine being)
- Now I know that in religion, there are many variations of beliefs. For example, there are Christians who believe in God but also believe in evolution/natural selection/science in general.

Modern Science
Many people started to claim that God was no longer a necessary explanation for why the natural world developed after Darwin. R.Dawkins wrote many books to support Darwin/evolution/rejection of God and stated that natural selection gives the appearance of design and led to a mistaken belief of a designer. He rejected design. He said that variation comes about because of random mistakes in DNA molecules. He stated that genes/molecules of DNA are the fundamental unit of natural selection - 'the replicators'. Organisms (humans included) are just vehicles or packaging for 'the replicators'. The success/failure of replicators is based on their ability to build successful vehicles.
Family/social groups - we create and pass down genes in order to survive.
Memes - unit of cultural inheritance. The memes are essentially ideas and are operated on by natural selection. Humans therefor appear to appreciate beauty but it is part of survival.
SOME SCIENTISTS, however, disagree with Dawkins and claim the universe did in fact come about by the creation of God.

In conclusion, Hume accepted it was more probable than not that the universe was designed and there was a designer but it was not God.
Paul Davies accepted design and organisation of the universe that someone may have been responsible and that someone may be God.

Kant
Scientific advancements would prompt new versions of the teleological argument.The design argument rests on the assumption that the universe is designed. The designer imposed order on the universe but it is dependent of it. It is also based on regularity, order and purpose in the universe.Kant stated that chaos may be in the universe not order. It is our minds which organise our experiences and things appear ordered. We impose design on the world.

05.05.2015 16:03:04

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