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Serious talk / Reputation points helping thread

Posts
126
Created
02.11.2023
Author
Blecky89
Susan Slutzky
Level 235
Status: Senator
Sex Appeal: 10836726
Reputation: 210378
Posts: 3621
Freethinkerland
02.11.2023 18:26:46
Susan Slutzky

I provided a lot of information as to why Israel's government is actually to blame for this long term (they created Hamas in an attempt to quell secular dissent against their colonial regime), why Israel's defenders benefit from antisemitism, etc.
How exactly did Israel create Hamas?

02.11.2023 18:26:46
Pollyx
Level 125
Status: State Minister
Sex Appeal: 1556126
Reputation: 48611
Posts: 765
Antitheocra
02.11.2023 18:38:24
Pollyx

Susan, I really earnestly appreciate that you want to know more, but I don't think I need to hold your hand through this. My post specifically references this and links multiple sources discussing this issue and exactly why, when, and how it happened. I should not need to re-link those because you were not willing to read my post. I am not going to interact with you any more on this issue if you cannot take the time to go any of the extensive research I have provided. I don't want to be rude but it's just a waste of everyone's time for me to be repeating myself and re-linking things I have already extensively sourced. I am earnestly trying to help others understand because this is a complex issue involving a great deal of extensive political misinformation over the course of many, many decades, so if you (generally, not just you specifically, Susan—I don't mean to single you out) are willing to put aside your preconceived notions and read the sources I vetted that would be the biggest and first step to making sure everyone knows the reality of what is going on. Again and one more time before I disconnect some from this, if anyone has other questions after reading my sources or thinks there's something I'm really missing here, feel free to DM me. I am willing to put in the legwork to research things you're unsure about or want more information on. I mean that. I want to help everyone understand this better.

I accept that I was wrong to say I wasn't going to engage in dialogue. That was back when I was going to post this in the original rep thread, which I didn't. I just wanted everyone to know I don't want to fight about this. I want to educate and am earnestly willing to do so, but you need to be willing to put in the work too or else we're just not coming at this from the same place or willingness/desire to learn.



02.11.2023 18:38:24
♥ Join The Church of Xod, an all-state fashion & creative contest where you create a (fake)bimbo god! Be inventive, do some worldbuilding, have fun! Open until May 10th, extra prizes for Antitheocrans ♥
Here is my well-sourced educational forum post about Israel's apartheid and genocide of Palestinians in Gaza and across Palestine as a whole, please educate yourself or you may fall for propaganda! 

Susan Slutzky
Level 235
Status: Senator
Sex Appeal: 10836726
Reputation: 210378
Posts: 3621
Freethinkerland
02.11.2023 18:57:29
Susan Slutzky

Stop filibustering and answer the question. You made the claim, now show the evidence. Put it right here in this thread so we can all read it together.

If you won’t do it, I must conclude it’s because you can’t do it.

02.11.2023 18:57:29
Pollyx
Level 125
Status: State Minister
Sex Appeal: 1556126
Reputation: 48611
Posts: 765
Antitheocra
02.11.2023 19:34:47
Pollyx

The fact that I'm doing what you're saying at all is ridiculous of me, but sure. I will share an excerpt from one of the articles I shared, including accounts that are corroborated in dozens and dozens of sources as well as numerous paywalled academic articles. I am not going to write this in my own words when there are much better accounts that describe this in the words of actual Israeli officials. I am going to use quotes. The entire reason I shared links is so that you could gain your information from credible sources instead of just listening to me, one person, trying to describe this with no backup for my claims. So I guess, here's an excerpt from what I??? already shared???? like this was in the original post ??? which I don't even think you read?? This is why I said I didn't want to have a discussion like. Why is this even happening

All I have been doing here is offering my work and time and advice to help people understand and the base minimum requested is that you look at what I have already shared. Not filibustering, just providing evidence. This situation is too complex to be summed up in one sentence. It REQUIRES a lot of words to understand—I'm not just spouting words for the sake of wasting time, and I wasn't avoiding sending an article because I don't have evidence. I was refusing to do so because I already provided evidence and you just refused to look at it! This is such a weird interaction, I don't get why you're so stubbornly unwilling to look. I spent like four hours putting this together and reading and re-reading my sources. Like. What.

From https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

Listen to former Israeli officials such as Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)

“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”

“Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official who worked in Gaza for more than two decades, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009. Back in the mid-1980s, Cohen even wrote an official report to his superiors warning them not to play divide-and-rule in the Occupied Territories, by backing Palestinian Islamists against Palestinian secularists. “I … suggest focusing our efforts on finding ways to break up this monster before this reality jumps in our face,” he wrote.

They didn’t listen to him. And Hamas, as I explain in the fifth installment of my short film series for The Intercept on blowback, was the result. To be clear: First, the Israelis helped build up a militant strain of Palestinian political Islam, in the form of Hamas and its Muslim Brotherhood precursors; then, the Israelis switched tack and tried to bomb, besiege, and blockade it out of existence.

In the past decade alone, Israel has gone to war with Hamas three times — in 2009, 2012, and 2014 — killing around 2,500 Palestinian civilians in Gaza in the process. Meanwhile, Hamas has killed far more Israeli civilians than any secular Palestinian militant group. This is the human cost of blowback.

“When I look back at the chain of events, I think we made a mistake,” David Hacham, a former Arab affairs expert in the Israeli military who was based in Gaza in the 1980s, later remarked. “But at the time, nobody thought about the possible results.”

Here is the other article. https://time.com/6324221/hamas-origins-history/ Don't want to spam so I'm not sharing excerpts from this but the link is right here, easy and simple for you to open.

After this point I really seriously am going to stop interacting with you if you refuse to read my sources. I am not going to hold your hand through every question you have that I have already provided answers for in the form of numerous resources. If I do not respond after this point it is not because I do not have information to refute you or that I'm spouting nonsense. It's that you are completely and totally refusing to meet in the middle anywhere. You criticize what I'm saying without having read any of it at all. You demand I literally copy and paste bits from an article you had access to this entire time while implying I'm antisemitic if I don't or that I have no research backbone. Like, I went to grad school. I wrote a dissertation. I can do my research. If anyone else wants to talk about this with me, again, I am more than willing to do so, but I am not willing to waste my time any more copying and pasting and restating information because you are just completely and totally unwilling to engage with what I've already provided. I've already set out the shoes for you, I should not have to bend down and put them on your feet. Come on now.

Okay done! Have a good rest of your day everyone, stay safe and educated.

02.11.2023 19:34:47
♥ Join The Church of Xod, an all-state fashion & creative contest where you create a (fake)bimbo god! Be inventive, do some worldbuilding, have fun! Open until May 10th, extra prizes for Antitheocrans ♥
Here is my well-sourced educational forum post about Israel's apartheid and genocide of Palestinians in Gaza and across Palestine as a whole, please educate yourself or you may fall for propaganda! 

Katrynah
Level 245
Status: Minister of Foreign Affairs
Sex Appeal: 13051331
Reputation: 184030
Posts: 2344
Antitheocra
02.11.2023 21:02:10
Katrynah

pollyx, thank you for taking the time to cite and clearly lay out your claims and the facts of the matter. its hard to have to both deal with the grief of thousands dead in less than 4 weeks while also battling ignorance/misconceptions, so i applaud you for that.

susan, respectfully, i am not here to debate. one cannot debate the death toll that has arisen in less than a month (as it is nov 2nd where i am) as a result of israel and my intention with posting these updates has always been to call attention to the atrocities as well as vent my grief for this continued loss of life. additionally, the oct 7th hamas attack did not happen in a vacuum but rather in response to decades of colonization and settler violence bankrolled by world powers. if i were to bring light onto any deaths other than the palestian ones at the moment, it would first be with the second armenian genocide that is occuring in azerbaijan, or the mass exploitation and deaths in the congo, or the ongoing sudanese conflict, or any issue where true innocent lives are being lost in masse.

to stay true to my original goal, here is another gaza update from these past few days alone: israel is currently storming Jenin in the West Bank (an attack that follows steadily increasing settler violence in the area), israel dropped white phosporus in an UNRWA school in the Shari refugee camp where thousands had taken shelter, israel bombed al-maghazi refugee camp in central gaza as well as the bureij refugee camp. additionally, the indonesian hospital has officially run out of power, meaning those sheltered there cannot receive lifesaving care and there are currently reports that the israeli government has blocked roads leading from the north of gaza to the south where they were told to evacuate to, trapping the survivors.  

02.11.2023 21:02:10
☆*- кαтяуиαн -* ☆  Here's Pollyx's educational forum post about Israel's apartheid and genocide of Palestinians!
  
  
emo divider
vampirevampirismvampires plz interact
Susan Slutzky
Level 235
Status: Senator
Sex Appeal: 10836726
Reputation: 210378
Posts: 3621
Freethinkerland
02.11.2023 21:16:56
Susan Slutzky

To Pollyx:

Yes, in the past Israel sent arms to Hamas (which already existed!) in a misguided attempt to create a bulwark against the PLO — another group whose stated mission is to eradicate all Jews.

Before entering WWII, the US sent arms to the UK to defend itself against Nazi Germany. Does that mean the United States created Great Britain?

Of course not. You are twisting the meaning of  Cohen’s quote in the article above. He is not saying Israel literally created the terrorist organization called Hamas. He is saying Israel bears responsibility for allowing it to gain strength and political power in the region, which is absolutely true, and now Israel is paying a terrible price for that short-sighted decision.

But this does not change the reality that Israel unilaterally pulled out of Gaza in 2005. (No Jews live there today, unlike in Israel where Muslims & Christians are actual citizens with representation in the only democratic government in the Middle East.) Nor does it negate the fact that Hamas gained control of Gaza though the legislative election of 2006 — and consequently have never held another election since then.


To Katrynah:
additionally, the oct 7th hamas attack did not happen in a vacuum but rather in response to decades of colonization and settler violence bankrolled by world powers
Is that how you justify the slaughter of unarmed civilians — including the beheading of infants? Were those babies evil colonizers too?

if i were to bring light onto any deaths other than the palestian ones at the moment, it would first be with the secondarmenian genocide that is occuring in azerbaijan, or the mass exploitation and deaths in the congo, or the ongoing sudanese conflict, or any issue where true innocent lives are being lost in masse.
“True innocent lives”, eh? Well, that answers my question above. I find it interesting that your capacity for empathy is so limited that you feel the need to rank the value of victims of mass murder by ethnicity, and Jewish lives don’t make the cut. Very interesting indeed.


02.11.2023 21:16:56
Katrynah
Level 245
Status: Minister of Foreign Affairs
Sex Appeal: 13051331
Reputation: 184030
Posts: 2344
Antitheocra
02.11.2023 22:13:15
Katrynah

susan, the only innocent lives in israel are children. everyone else is a settler and/or a soldier. show me the beheaded babies because from what ive seen, that is an unsubstantiated claim. my discord is tycant if you would like to discuss the children's deaths there as what i could show and describe goes against forum guidelines and i want to respect blecky's efforts to keep civility in the forums (which is why this new thread was made in the first place). 

02.11.2023 22:13:15
☆*- кαтяуиαн -* ☆  Here's Pollyx's educational forum post about Israel's apartheid and genocide of Palestinians!
  
  
emo divider
vampirevampirismvampires plz interact
Susan Slutzky
Level 235
Status: Senator
Sex Appeal: 10836726
Reputation: 210378
Posts: 3621
Freethinkerland
02.11.2023 22:48:47
Susan Slutzky

susan, the only innocent lives in israel are children. everyone else is a settler and/or a soldier.
So murdering unarmed civilians at a music festival is ok, as long as the victims are Jews in Israel? Is that how it works?

And what’s the cutoff age for children? Are Israeli kids no longer innocent once they reach 18 years old? 10 years old? 9 months old?

02.11.2023 22:48:47
morguegirl
Level 174
Status: Citizen
Sex Appeal: 4208169
Reputation: 114098
Posts: 1691
Secville
03.11.2023 06:37:27
morguegirl

saying that there's a military headquarter underneath that hospital is just as absurd as saying that the earth is flat... and it has already been proven that decapitated babies are fake news. and let's be honest? usa and israel don't care if they are taking jewish or palestinian lives. it's just business to them. the key is to disconnect israel from judaism. israel only uses judaism to excuse its vile and cruel actions. and keep in mind that i'm talking about politicians and not the general population of israel. politicians, no matter their origin, are dirty people with dirty interests. we should not believe them.

03.11.2023 06:37:27
Susan Slutzky
Level 235
Status: Senator
Sex Appeal: 10836726
Reputation: 210378
Posts: 3621
Freethinkerland
03.11.2023 08:07:31
Susan Slutzky

saying that there's a military headquarter underneath that hospital is just as absurd as saying that the earth is flat...
Is it really though? You may be skeptical of recent evidence from IDF, and that’s fine. But it’s been well established that Hamas operates a vast network of underground tunnels under civilian areas to shield against airstrikes. Even the Guardian says there is truth to the claim. 

and it has already been proven that decapitated babies are fake news.
Has it? I’d truly like to see that proof. But assuming you’re right, how does leaving their heads attached justify the killing of innocent children?

and let's be honest? usa and israel don't care if they are taking jewish or palestinian lives. it's just business to them.
You’re welcome to hold that opinion. Other opinions are available.

the key is to disconnect israel from judaism.
The key to what, exactly?

israel only uses judaism to excuse its vile and cruel actions.
Another fascinating opinion.

and keep in mind that i'm talking about politicians and not the general population of israel.
You mean like the Israeli families who were slaughtered by Hamas terrorists at the music festival on Oct 7?

politicians, no matter their origin, are dirty people with dirty interests. we should not believe them.
Does that include the leaders of Hamas?

03.11.2023 08:07:31

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