frogbimbo wrote:
For people who are trying to spread real info about what is happening, do not waste your time with people who only want "a hot debate" in which, despite receiving truthful arguments/proof, they only want to impose their vision of things and therefore misinform other people. The proof provided is clear, whoever doesn't want to see it is because they don't want to.
For all the people who read unfair things but don't have the courage or feel capable of supporting the cause right now for whatever reason, it's okay!! By sharing/liking you already do a lot, take care and stay safe ( ˘ ³˘)♡
Coming here again to echo this! Susan has shown over and over she isn't interested in learning. She came to this discussion with a particular viewpoint and will not be swayed otherwise. She is spreading misinformation (which my sources explicitly disprove) as well as posting about shock value stories that have been proven false, such as the beheaded babies. Actually, across history the FALSE idea of "ritualized cult murder of children" has actually been directed against Jews, and was one of the talking points used by Nazis in the Holocaust.
You can read more about the history of blood libel here (yes, Wikipedia link, but you can check Wikipedia's academic sources for where editors have gotten this information). Using this kind of false reasoning and fearmongering is one of the longstanding tactics of those looking to defend genocide.
Please do not interact with her arguments. She goes against anything anyone says and ignores what does not fit into her worldview, and when any of us bring up important sources and factual information she acts as if these arguments are built on nothing and evades the conversation (such as saying "Another fascinating opinion" when confronted with the idea that anti-Israel sentiments are disconnected from antisemitic sentiments). Many of us have provided reputable sources disproving these opinions.
While we're here, though, as one last note to fight the misinformation being posted, I do want to just bring up some information surrounding Hamas and PLO, as Susan has repeatedly stated that these groups work with the express purpose of eradicating all Jews. This is absolutely false and even the quote Susan posted to defend this actually helps us to understand why it's not true. Here is the quote:
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
First of all, Susan accuses others of cherry-picking while doing some high level cherry-picking herself. But also, I think it's important to note that this quote mentions ISRAEL and not JUDAISM. The intent is to obliterate ISRAEL, not all Jewish people in general, and this quote is not defending or even suggesting mass murder. It is describing Hamas' intent to get rid of the state of Israel. As has been sourced and discussed MANY times in this thread, Israel is a settler colonial state. It was created by powerful nations by displacing and subjugating the people who actually lived there at the time of Israel's establishment, and since then Israel has been taking over more and more Palestinian territory in an attempt to assert absolute dominance. Israeli settlers have displaced Palestinians out of their own homes and establishing a legal precedent that Palestinians can not return to their homeland, even if they were born there! If some of these liberation groups are calling for Israel to be removed, deestablished, obliterated, etc. that is referring to the STATE of Israel and the apartheid rule. it is NOT a call to massacre and exterminate Jewish people. That is just objectively untrue, though in case anyone wants to try to pick out details in my statement, it should be obvious that in large groups and populations, INDIVIDUALS may feel differently and hold individual biases or even violent intentions. That is on the individuals, not the group, and CERTAINLY not on Palestinians in general.
It is true that Hamas is a religious group. It is also true that they are the predominant Palestinian liberation group currently BECAUSE of the interference of Israel's government. Israel viewed the more varied, secular liberation groups as more of a threat and gave power and support to Hamas in order to destabilize these other more mild, secular groups. This is also a big reason why Hamas won the election in 2006—Israel had worked to disempower the more secular, non-violent groups.
Here is more of a quote Susan cherry-picked from Hamas, including the second half that she cut out:
“Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with.”
This perspective exists because of the historical precedent of Israel not honoring their agreements with the Palestinian people. They have left no other choice for Palestinian liberation because Israel fundamentally wants to control all of Palestine and displace its people. This quote from one of the Hamas Leaders Khaled Mashaal (2012) is also helpful:
“The state will come from resistance, not negotiation. Liberation first, then statehood. Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north,” he said in a speech. “There will be no concession on any inch of the land. We will never recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation, and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel… We will free Jerusalem inch by inch, stone by stone. Israel has no right to be in Jerusalem.”
It has been proven over and over across history that when words and negotiation fail, as they have in the liberation of Palestine, violent resistance is one of the most effective ways of forcing change. We have seen this in the US, during the civil rights movement and in LGBTQ movements such as what was started with Stonewall, that when the dominant power does not see certain groups as people and turns a blind eye to or is actively complicit in their murder and suffering, peaceful negotiation will not work. This is not me excusing the deaths of Israeli people on October 7th. I never want anyone to die, and Hamas' tactics only hurt Palestinian people. However, Israel has left no other group standing. There is no choice of another resistance group. They have no power. They are being slaughtered due to movements of power they have no control over, especially since 40% of Palestinians on the Gaza Strip are children. This situation has been intentionally engineered by Israel.
And another quote which makes it clear that Hamas intent is NOT to exterminate all Jews, a blatantly false and DAMAGING claim Susan has repeatedly posted in this forum which I think is really important to correct.
However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.” Second, it attempted to distinguish between Jews or Judaism and modern Zionism. Hamas said that its fight was against the “racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist” Zionist project, Israel, but not against Judaism or Jews. The updated platform also lacked some of the anti-Semitic language of the 1988 charter. Third, the document did not reference the Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood, from which Hamas was originally an offshoot.
All of these quotes are from
this article which discusses and includes the Doctrine of Hamas. I would strongly encourage you all to read through the entire page, as it helps dispel some common misconceptions and lies about Hamas. It's not all positive for Hamas! A lot of it is not! But it also deconstruct some common (and false) Zionist talking points. Another important quote from the doctrine:
It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails, and schisms and wars will break out.
This is definitely a religious statement upholding Islam as the religion that "should" predominate in the region. I'm not defending this. However, like I've given sources for over and over and over, Israel
chose to lift up Hamas as their Palestinian liberation group of choice.
That was on purpose. There would be more secular options available if Israel had not destabilized them. It's also important to note that while this quote is religious, it does NOT say that everyone in Palestine will need to be Muslim. It actually says the opposite, discussing a desire for all religions to coexist in a way that the rights and possessions of
everyone are respected. Does this really sound like Hamas is coming to the table with "the sole purpose of killing every Jewish person who lives there" (from Susan)? It sure doesn't to me. AGAIN, this is not me defending the murder of Israelis on October 7th, though settlers participating in a music festival right next to the world's largest open air prison (CREATED by their country) are pretty actively benefiting from settler colonial violence. I just want to provide some information about how ARMED RESISTANCE TO OCCUPATION differs from TERRORISM.
Here's the PLO charter, since Susan claimed they also wanted to "exterminate all Jews." Also an amazing and helpful read, and a primary source at that. Here are some relevant, insightful quotes from the covenant:
"The liberation of Palestine, from a spiritual point of view, will provide the Holy Land with an atmosphere of safety and tranquility, which in turn will safeguard the country's religious sanctuaries and guarantee freedom of worship and of visit to all, without discrimination of race, color, language, or religion. Accordingly, the people of Palestine look to all spiritual forces in the world for support."
"The liberation of Palestine, from an international point of view, is a defensive action necessitated by the demands of self-defense. Accordingly the Palestinian people, desirous as they are of the friendship of all people, look to freedom-loving, and peace-loving states for support in order to restore their legitimate rights in Palestine, to re-establish peace and security in the country, and to enable its people to exercise national sovereignty and freedom."
"The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong."
"The Palestinian people believe in the principles of justice, freedom, sovereignty, self-determination, human dignity, and in the right of all peoples to exercise them."
"Zionism is a political movement organically associated with international imperialism and antagonistic to all action for liberation and to progressive movements in the world. It is racist and fanatic in its nature, aggressive, expansionist, and colonial in its aims, and fascist in its methods. Israel is the instrument of the Zionist movement, and geographical base for world imperialism placed strategically in the midst of the Arab homeland to combat the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity, and progress. Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vis peace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East, the Palestinian people look for the support of all the progressive and peaceful forces and urge them all, irrespective of their affiliations and beliefs, to offer the Palestinian people all aid and support in their just struggle for the liberation of their homeland."
Thanks for reading, if you got this far. My point here is NOT to argue with Susan, because again my suggestion is to generally ignore her and not try to personally change her opinion because it's not going to happen. She has shown over and over that she believes Israeli lives to be fundamentally more valuable than Palestinian lives, and she has excused the genocide of Palestinian people while sharing numerous lies about the circumstances which led to October 7th. Her misinformation (especially including the false story about beheaded babies) is very dangerous! That's why I'm sharing this. I hope it can help shed light on some things that might have seemed clear while also deconstructing several of Susan's points that some might unwittingly believe are true despite their factual inaccuracy.
Much love to everyone, take care of yourselves, and thank you for supporting the Palestinian cause.
07.11.2023 18:25:56
