the topic of trans women in sports has nothing to do with anything i've been saying, but it is a topic i would be happy to talk about. do you have specific examples of this claim you're making?
my opinion on transitioning
@Cunning Linguist Again, I have no problems with the men that transition to female and integrate into society. I don't know how many times I have to clarify this. However, I do have a problem with the idea that a man does not need to transition at all and still be called a woman. One thing is not like the other don't you think? You have transitioned therefore I probably would walk into the locker room take a quick glance around and not be alarmed because I would see someone with my characteristics.
Anne Andres, a trans woman athlete, competed at the Canadian Powerlifting Union’s 2023 Western Championship, beating out Michelle Kymanick and Sujan Gil in the Female Masters Unequipped category to win first place. Feagaiga Stowers winning the gold medal 2018, 2022 Oceania Online Cup she set three new Oceania records and won best overall female. I've never been ok with males competing in women sports, it has been a problem, but women have always been understanding and pushovers.
Soccer is my thing and I’d be terrified at the idea of ever having to play biological men. Men’s soccer is no joke compared to women’s soccer.
Women’s football (we call it football in my country) team consisting of five trans women players won the pre-season Beryl Ackroyd Cup tournament in Sydney, Australia. Flying Bats FC won every game they played over the course of the four-week competition, winning the grand final 4-0 at Macquarie Park on Sunday to take home the $1000 jackpot. There were huge winning margins in some games, with one trans player scoring six goals in a 10-0 victory. Those opportunities should have been for biological women. Trans men are not a threat to men’s sports.
I too am amazed that feminists of today are advocating for males to take opportunities from females. Yesterday they were saying women didn’t need men and eff the patriarchy. I am not a feminist; I want the rights that women in the past fought for to remain untouched. Trans should have their own category in sports.
anne andres: let's look at the women anne beat.
sujan gil: this was only her 3rd competition ever. she'd only been powerlifting for about a year and a half. anne has been powerlifting since 2017.
michelle kymanick: had had a total hip replacement in the past year. also had a strongwoman competition the following weekend which her training was more focused on.
anne andres is an exceptional powerlifter, that much is certain! however, the idea that this is because she is trans doesn't really stand up to scrutiny.
first, her records are available:
her first competition in 2019 is at the bottom, while her most recent is at the top. her first few competitions are well within the average female range. look at how her numbers climb! it does not make sense for her to have reached those numbers because of an advantage retained from her natal sex, or else she would've started there. so either she started taking steroids (unlikely, as athletes get drug tested) or she has exceptional work ethic. additionally, she is surpassed by multiple cisgender female athletes. those are not the only ones but i'm not going to list every one i can find, lol. it also doesn't make sense when you look at the physical mechanics of powerlifting. her best category is deadlift, and the main decider for deadlifting strength is muscle mass (source). but trans women see a decrease in muscle mass to regular female ranges within 2-3 years of HRT. anne started HRT in 2003 and had sex reassignment surgery in 2007.
feagaiga stowers: she is not trans. she won gold in 2018 after trans lifter laurel hubbard dropped out due to an injury. she was only 7kg behind hubbard before she dropped out.
flying bats fc: the flying bats is a lgbtq+ football club that has existed since 1985. they have had trans women on their teams for over 20 years. a team with multiple trans women won one local tournament for one area of sydney australia. this is not elite sports, it's local grass-roots organizations; anyone can join the flying bats regardless of ability and they're placed in competitions that suit their skills. as such, there are massive skill differences. this is true of all low-level sports. this kind of a win streak would be suspect in elite/national competitions but i honestly think the outrage over this is overblown. this isn’t even the only tournament in sydney.
have you ever noticed that you only hear about trans women athletes when they win? this creates the illusion that all they do is win when this is far from the case. you don't hear about them when they lose, or do just okay, because that doesn't support the narrative. these stories are ragebait. they inspire outrage and thus engagement. it's an easy topic to get people riled up about.
on the science side of things, it's not so cut and dry. the notion that all trans women should categorically be banned from women's sports is not based on science and as cunning linguist said does noticeable harm to natal female athletes, such as those with naturally higher testosterone being banned or coerced into taking hormone blockers in order to maintain their careers, or young girls who are deemed to not be feminine enough being harassed and accused of being transgender, or politicians trying to compel young girls to submit data on their menstrual cycles to schools in order to play sports. anyway science:
research on this subject is tricky to navigate for two reasons. first, data about typical male and female physiology is erroneously applied to trans women, when trans women's physiology, save for reproductive organs, is generally more similar to cis women than cis men, or somewhere in the middle. second, a large portion of the data that does compare trans women to cis women is not treated or is inadequately treated. treated data is data that is controlled for specific variables that might muddy the statistical relationship you're researching. when you design an experiment, you try to control for all of the variables that you are not specifically researching. but in studies on humans, you can't do that, so the variables are controlled for in statistical analysis of the data ("treating" the data) and the findings and conclusions are based on the treated data.
this is important background because a large portion of the research directly comparing trans women to cis women in athletic performance do not control for height. trans women are on average taller than cis women. a taller person will have proportionally bigger muscles, longer limbs, and greater lung capacity, all of which give them an athletic advantage over shorter people (in most cases, in some sports a shorter stature is advantageous). so while most trans women have this advantage, tall cis women also have this advantage. data that is not controlled for height does not adequately convey whether or not trans women retain athletic advantages by virtue of being trans.
there have been some murmurings of this discrepancy in the scientific community for the past few years, but a comprehensive literature review published this year found that, when data is controlled for height (or other comparable measures such as lean body mass), there is consistently no statistical difference between the athletic performance of cis women and trans women on HRT for 2-3 years. all of the parameters measured are within the normal range of height-matched cis women.
there are currently no studies about professional athletes specifically, so that is definitely an area that needs addressing, but much of the discourse surrounding trans women in sports is based on grave misunderstanding of the effects of hormones on physiology and athletic performance. i'm not calling for complete inclusion based purely on gender self-identification, because hormones absolutely have a massive effect on physiology. i agree that there should be some inclusion criteria. but it should be based on actual data, not just pulling numbers out of a hat or picking a time frame based on vibes. lots to think about!
@bimbo pimp sorry this ended up being long....i appreciate you for having an actual conversation & not just hating trans people on principle
My issue with your stance tho is that it takes a lot of time & money to transition. its not like trans celebrities where they disappear for 2 months, get a fortunes worth of plastic surgeries, then suddenly reappear as fully another gender.
Even for the people that do have the time/money/support to "fully transition" - there's still a long period of time before they reach their goal. they will look androgynous or have mixed sex characteristics for months to years.
Should these people hide away from public life for that entire time? refrain from using public restrooms, gyms, or swimming pools for years because some stranger thinks they're a freak? that doesn't seem fair.
in this 'middle' stage, if they go into the mens bathroom they risk being physically or sexually assaulted by a man. if they go into the womens bathroom, they risk being seen as a threat at best, or being verbally or physically assaulted or arrested at worst.
(yet anti-trans people still argue against unisex single-stall bathrooms, or adding a unisex bathroom while still keeping the separate womens & mens rooms. which would seem like a good compromise, right?)
Plus some people will never look 'not trans' no matter how hard they try. Some can't take hormones or get surgery for medical reasons. Some straight up can't afford the medical costs. Should these people just suck it up, not transition, & live a life that makes them miserable, all for your sake? should they never go out in public? even if someone's body or appearance makes you uncomfortable, they're still a person just like any of us, still deserving of a good life & a place in society. i feel like you're capable of having empathy for this....
sports is a more complicated topic for sure, & imo it requires a more nuanced solution than a blanket trans ban - if only for the fact that all sports are different & actual thought should be put into what works best for each.
ofc men on average are larger & stronger - but winning also takes a combination of dexterity, stamina, flexibility, years of specialized training, strategy, teamwork, etc that differs from sport to sport. i think those things should be evaluated, rather than just saying "theres NO WAY a female could ever beat a male at ANYTHING remotely physical" (which feels a bit regressive & insulting)
it could make sense to have things like classes based on weight/size, lean muscle mass, or hormone composition for elite level sports. i totally understand being wary of unfair advantage & wanting protection from that when there are real stakes for the athletes.
i do think it's silly that people (at least in the US) are outraged about trans kids in noncompetitive social sports - but tbf i think all sports pre-highschool should be co-ed in the first place.
also gotta throw in this hot take: anyone upset about trans women in sports should be anti michael phelps. since he has a mutation that makes his muscles not produce the lactic acid that causes fatigue. plus he has freakishly long arms w webbed fingers. the perfect example of an unfair biological advantage in his sport!
My issue with your stance tho is that it takes a lot of time & money to transition. its not like trans celebrities where they disappear for 2 months, get a fortunes worth of plastic surgeries, then suddenly reappear as fully another gender.
Even for the people that do have the time/money/support to "fully transition" - there's still a long period of time before they reach their goal. they will look androgynous or have mixed sex characteristics for months to years.
Should these people hide away from public life for that entire time? refrain from using public restrooms, gyms, or swimming pools for years because some stranger thinks they're a freak? that doesn't seem fair.
in this 'middle' stage, if they go into the mens bathroom they risk being physically or sexually assaulted by a man. if they go into the womens bathroom, they risk being seen as a threat at best, or being verbally or physically assaulted or arrested at worst.
(yet anti-trans people still argue against unisex single-stall bathrooms, or adding a unisex bathroom while still keeping the separate womens & mens rooms. which would seem like a good compromise, right?)
Plus some people will never look 'not trans' no matter how hard they try. Some can't take hormones or get surgery for medical reasons. Some straight up can't afford the medical costs. Should these people just suck it up, not transition, & live a life that makes them miserable, all for your sake? should they never go out in public? even if someone's body or appearance makes you uncomfortable, they're still a person just like any of us, still deserving of a good life & a place in society. i feel like you're capable of having empathy for this....
sports is a more complicated topic for sure, & imo it requires a more nuanced solution than a blanket trans ban - if only for the fact that all sports are different & actual thought should be put into what works best for each.
ofc men on average are larger & stronger - but winning also takes a combination of dexterity, stamina, flexibility, years of specialized training, strategy, teamwork, etc that differs from sport to sport. i think those things should be evaluated, rather than just saying "theres NO WAY a female could ever beat a male at ANYTHING remotely physical" (which feels a bit regressive & insulting)
it could make sense to have things like classes based on weight/size, lean muscle mass, or hormone composition for elite level sports. i totally understand being wary of unfair advantage & wanting protection from that when there are real stakes for the athletes.
i do think it's silly that people (at least in the US) are outraged about trans kids in noncompetitive social sports - but tbf i think all sports pre-highschool should be co-ed in the first place.
also gotta throw in this hot take: anyone upset about trans women in sports should be anti michael phelps. since he has a mutation that makes his muscles not produce the lactic acid that causes fatigue. plus he has freakishly long arms w webbed fingers. the perfect example of an unfair biological advantage in his sport!
b-but trans women after a few years have the same levels of hormones as women!
yeah, they also have higher bone density, bigger hearts and lung capacity
on average they are bigger since they are biologicaly małe
And I'm sorry, but why we don't have a giant spike of trans men joining men's team? Oh, maybe because THEY DON'T FEEL ENTITLED TO MEN'S SPACES LIKE SOME TRANS WOMEN DO
yeah, they also have higher bone density, bigger hearts and lung capacity
on average they are bigger since they are biologicaly małe
And I'm sorry, but why we don't have a giant spike of trans men joining men's team? Oh, maybe because THEY DON'T FEEL ENTITLED TO MEN'S SPACES LIKE SOME TRANS WOMEN DO
trans women actually on average have lower bone density than cisgender women, this is a known risk of feminizing HRT and research on why it happens is still ongoing. heart size and lung capacity are proportional to height. height is not a regulated category in sports.
also, you’re kind of demonstrating my point about media framing.
the first trans NCAA division swimmer was a trans man, schuyler bailar. he’s also quite good, in the top 15%. i bet you’ve never heard of him, but i bet you’ve heard of lia thomas.
the first trans person to qualify for the olympics was a trans man, chris mosier, a triathlete. he’s also a 3x national champion. i bet you’ve never heard of him, but i bet you’ve heard of laurel hubbard.
makes you wonder why that is.
also, you’re kind of demonstrating my point about media framing.
the first trans NCAA division swimmer was a trans man, schuyler bailar. he’s also quite good, in the top 15%. i bet you’ve never heard of him, but i bet you’ve heard of lia thomas.
the first trans person to qualify for the olympics was a trans man, chris mosier, a triathlete. he’s also a 3x national champion. i bet you’ve never heard of him, but i bet you’ve heard of laurel hubbard.
makes you wonder why that is.
it’s because trans men are women and women competing with men have less of a chance of winning than the other way around lol
It's like you guys didn't even bother reading what iowa said
I always read what Iowa or you write Bimbo 6. It's like you didn't read what I wrote. I don't want a ban on trans athletes, they should have their own category. That is not banning them, women are being used as steppingstones. Women should not be stepped on for transwomen to get their own space in the world but instead of fighting to get unisex stalls for themselves and sports category; they want to just take mine. The reasonings for my fears have no significance for my need for safety in my spaces. The trans laws allow for gray areas, for predators to exploit and for men to take our opportunities in sports.
My mistake on feagaiga stowers, confused her with Laurel Hubbard, a trans who has won gold competing against women. The point I am trying to make is that these opportunities belong to bio women in women sports. Would it be fair if anyone in the country could apply for scholarships intended for black people?
Just because transwomen been competing for 20 years does not mean harm is not being done. Been paying closer attention since 2008. I was very interested in this one man that was transitioning and his views at the time, sounded genuinely wanting to live as a woman without causing harm. I supported him fully, now she is claiming that bio sex means absolutely nothing in women and to move over. lol Serves me right! The betrayal XD
Unintentional harm is being caused by changing the concept of "woman". Gender ideology has been pushed and infiltrated into the media and educational system. Always spoked out against religious indoctrination and I'll do the same with gender ideology indoctrination. There are a lot of people like myself that need to start giving their input and wake up from the stupor they've been under.
Oh we read it alright...Trust The Science!
<PLONK> right in the trash can.
How are those vaccines doing? Trust The Silence!
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